The Rise Of AI

General discussion and anything that isn't covered by the other categories.
Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Sat 12 Dec 2020, 19:33

Franke07 wrote:...... they released 1.0.0 (7348) but I have just reported an issue with it! It won't get pass the 80% mark in it's installation process.

I saw that message earlier and was intending to apply the update. Fortunately, I wanted to process an image first which I have now posted in the Photo Sharing forum. Thanks for the warning.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3682

My impression is that Luminar AI lacks refinement which is hardly surprising for an initial version. Despite the claims that it speeds up processing, I suspect that I took longer to get the final image than doing it in Lightroom. The problem seems to be in the Luminar AI interface which looks slick at first sight but actually has a lot of separate options to work through. Adobe has done a better job in combining its controls into fewer sections. Luminar AI is supposed to be quicker because it intelligently applies adjustments at the outset but I am not finding that the software and I are on the same page where that is concerned. Maybe it is OK for rapidly producing something to post on social media but I still want to have a finer control over the end result.

As well as making global changes, I also tried making some local adjustments. I needed to make some tonal changes in two separate areas but it was not clear whether Luminar AI permits that. Lightroom shows where adjustments have occurred with the use of pins which also allows further changes to be made. There does not appear to be any corresponding functionality in Luminar AI. I also found that I could not make the changes as strong as I wanted and the sliders needed to be moved a long way to make any noticeable difference.

I will try to attend the next Skylum Insiders coffee break session on Monday and see what they have to say. My views might not be too popular. :o
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Mike Farley
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Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Sun 13 Dec 2020, 07:16

I found this on PetaPixel about Adobe's future plans:

"...... the company plans to invest further into artificial intelligence-based systems and updates. By leveraging the company’s Adobe Sensei technology, you can expect more automation and easier-to-use tools to make higher-quality edits faster and require less individual skill."

Clearly, Adobe with its considerable resources is not going to hang around and let the likes of Skylum eat its lunch. Luminar AI has some useful party tricks but rather than being a standalone editor its main value might be as a Photoshop plugin.

Link to the full story on PetaPixel, which is chiefly about Adobe's soaring income, here:

https://petapixel.com/2020/12/11/as-ado ... i-editing/
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Mike Farley
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Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Mon 14 Dec 2020, 12:54

Mike Farley wrote:..... I also tried making some local adjustments. I needed to make some tonal changes in two separate areas but it was not clear whether Luminar AI permits that.

I have solved that particular mystery. Luminar AI allows an adjustment to be made to different areas of an image. The problem is that the same settings have to be applied universally, there is no option for the settings to differ in separate areas of the shot. If you want to lighten one part and darken another, you are going to be out of luck. I have also found that with a local mask, the Highlight and White controls do not have sufficient range to make the changes I require. Even extreme adjustments appear to have little effect.
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Mike Farley
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Franke07
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Franke07 » Mon 14 Dec 2020, 13:23

Well it looks like they resolved the issue, no idea what it was as they gave no indication in the response! Looking on the forum it seems there are a number of issues being flagged; interestingly support seem to be mowing through them.

Applied the update not sure what it was correcting as I can't find anything tells you what was addressed or the fixes that were applied, certainly did not address the speed of the catalog it is still pedestrian in it's loading of the images.

I think we are both in the same camp, regarding the sales pitch we received in that this software was supposed to look at your image and suggest edits which you could use as starting points or disregard if you wanted to go solo. Maybe I'm not using it correctly but it seems to me to be a bunch of templates that you can apply much like the Nik collections! I need to spend some more time with it but the purpose was to have to spend less time!!
Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Mon 14 Dec 2020, 15:32

Franke07 wrote:Well it looks like they resolved the issue, no idea what it was as they gave no indication in the response! Looking on the forum it seems there are a number of issues being flagged; interestingly support seem to be mowing through them.

------ certainly did not address the speed of the catalog it is still pedestrian in it's loading of the images

Thanks, Frank. I will go ahead with the update! I have found some other issues which appear to be bugs so it will be interesting to see if they have fixed them. Regarding the speed of cataloguing images, there is a lot of data to churn through and although the CPUs in our computers are powerful, they are not optimised for image processing. Assuming your 23,000 shots were all taken on your 5D MkII, that is around 500 GB or more to process.

Franke07 wrote:I think we are both in the same camp, regarding the sales pitch we received in that this software was supposed to look at your image and suggest edits which you could use as starting points or disregard if you wanted to go solo. Maybe I'm not using it correctly but it seems to me to be a bunch of templates that you can apply much like the Nik collections! I need to spend some more time with it but the purpose was to have to spend less time!!

When I was processing the shot of my grandson, the suggested template came from either the "Close-up" or "Blockbuster" groups (it varied each time I started anew), not "Portrait" as I would have expected. So much for artificial intelligence! While I tend to ignore suggested settings since they tend to be style over substance, I found that "High Key" in the "Easy Portraits" sub-group gave a good starting point. Eventually I ended up with two fairly similar results but I defintely got there quicker with Lightroom which also allowed me to make the local adjustments I wanted.

My feeling is that Skylum has done a reasonably good job for an initial iteration. The range of functions in the Portrait Edit group seemingly work well, although admittedly that is based on my experience with just one image. In some of the processing I have seen online, the software appears to have the capability to analyse a scene and apply adjustments with automatic masking. I still need to verify that for myself since the presenters have undoubtedly chosen images which show the application at its best. Next on my list are some shots from my Fuji cameras where I do not feel that Lightroom has not handled the Raw conversion as well as I would have liked.
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Mike Farley
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Franke07
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Franke07 » Mon 14 Dec 2020, 16:30

I'm not sure if this is the Live event that I missed but watching this has been very insightful in understanding how to use LAI, it would have been handy to look at this first although I wanted to see how intuitive the software is without having to resort to manuals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQHSQ7ZHAAk&feature=youtu.be

The demos look good but as you have said they are probably chosen to bring out the best in the software, but it shows the software's aspirations!
Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Mon 14 Dec 2020, 16:48

Franke07 wrote:I'm not sure if this is the Live event that I missed but watching this has been very insightful in understanding how to use LAI, it would have been handy to look at this first although I wanted to see how intuitive the software is without having to resort to manuals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQHSQ7ZHAAk&feature=youtu.be

Yes, that is a recording of the live launch event which I did not find to be that useful, basically as I had already had seen a lot of it in previews. What I have mainly been participating in are the Coffee Break sessions which have been held on Zoom and allow direct access to a couple of representatives from the Skylum team. One of them is known simply as Vanelli and is Skylum's Director of Education who has been involved in writing the manual. The other is Angela Andrieux, Educator & Community Manager for Skylum Software. I am not sure how long these sessions are planned to continue now that the official release date is nearly upon us, but they are scheduled for 6:00 pm every day this week. There have also been some other "how to" webinars which I have seen and been helpful.
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Mike Farley
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Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Tue 15 Dec 2020, 09:21

I raised the issues I have previously documented here at yesterday's Skylum Insiders Coffee Break which was hosted by Angela Andrieux. For most, I was advised to raise them with technical support which I will do if they are still present in the latest version. In respect of not being able to adjust separate local adjustment areas individually, she did a quick demo which apparently showed that it was possible. Once again, that is something which might have been fixed in the update.

I also stated in the Zoom Chat function that I thought getting the final result in Luminar AI is slower than using Lightroom. Twice, as it was ignored the first time around. And the second. Angela was trying to close the meeting when I struck a third time by speaking to camera. She looked rueful and I suspect it is something which Skylum has been aware of for a while. The inevitable comment that I know Lightroom better than Luminar AI came back. Once users are familiar with the effect of the controls, they will know which ones to use and which to ignore for any given image. That is true to an extent but not the whole story. Adobe has fewer tabs and shows controls simultaneously whereas in LAI they are kept separate. The only way to know for certain what effect a function will have is to try it. That means more clicks to get to the control as opposed to having the sliders already visible.

Angela agreed Skylum could improve matters by showing a description of a control when the mouse is hovered over it. Some of the icons and controls are small and hard to see. Indeed, Angela pointed out some instances herself so it looks as though we will see some tweaks to the interface in a futuure update. However, based on what Angela said, I do not believe that we will see a fundamental change as Skylum believes it has made the interface as user friendly as it can.

What I will say is that I am astonished and pleased to have had that conversation with someone who is closely involved with the development of LAI. I cannot conceive it would have been possible with any other company. The opportunity for such participation is worth the early adopter admission price alone.
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Mike Farley
(Visit my website and blog - www.mikefarley.net)
Mike Farley
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Mike Farley » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 13:18

One issue solved. I have now discovered how to adjust individual local masks. According to the manual, it is possible to have up to 10 separate masks although there were no instructions on how to do so. It still feels clunky compared to Lightroom, which has no restrictions on the number of local adjustments.

I have just been reading the release announcement on DPReview and was astonished by the number of negative remarks made about Skylum in the comments.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/334005958 ... ve-control

Some people were complaining about stability which has not been an issue for me but speed of operation has also been criticised. I have noted a few instances when there has been a delay after moving the slider which can make fine adjustments awkward. Others made comments about the awkward interface with which I agree. There are simply too many poorly organised options to work through which negates any time saving from starting out with a template. Contrast adjustments in particular appear all over the place.

As I have said previously, Luminar AI might be OK for those who do not want or need to make fine adjustments and are satisfied with the results from the templates. I find that I can get better results more efficiently using Lightroom, finishing off in Photoshop and Nik as required.
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Mike Farley
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Franke07
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Re: The Rise Of AI

Postby Franke07 » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 14:17

Like yourself stability is not my issue and the agree with the other points you have highlighted.

I was rather troubled by the way they have implemented the clone tool once you have started you have to finish or cancel, I could not undo a change using the traditional ctrl z command, even the edit undo option would not work!
The ability to undo changes as you go along is basic. Having explored some of the other functions under Pro category, they allow you to use undo as you go along - there does not seem to be any consistency!

As you say Mike it's ver 1! Can only get better :)

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