Should we remove scoring in club competitions?

[davidc]

I don't think I'm alone in feeling the scoring of images in competitions is often one of the most frustrating & inconsistent drawbacks of running competitions. The most recent competition was a particularly bad example but really it's something that has happened for years and makes any sense of competition almost meaningless when judging is so erratic.

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming the judges per se, nor debating the pros & cons of "winning images". I'm only wanting to discuss alternate ways of running competitions that makes it less about producing images that tick all the boxes in the judges handbook and more about getting valuable critique & positive feedback.

There are two alternative systems I think are worthy of consideration. As each image is presented, judges are asked to focus on what works well in an image and potential areas for improvement. They are advised to consider the overall emotional impact & story of the image as well as technical merits - it's not a case of "spot the flaw" but rather why the image works and what the photographer could do to make it work better.

Details such as how many competitions we have and how many images we enter each time aren't specified, they are largely calendar/logistical concerns anyway. I'm trying to focus more on how we can make competitions productive rather than simply a way to win by creating images judges can't find reasons to vote-down or piss off beginners sick of getting a low score.

#1 - Flat Scoring
All images score 10 marks. Judges can award commendations/certificates, maybe half a dozen or so each class, and then they choose their top three favourite images. If an image is commended or top three it gets a different score -

Commendation - 11pts
3rd place - 12pts
2nd place - 13pts
1st place - 14pts

#2 - No scoring at all
As above but no points at all. We decide who wins trophies at the end of the season in the same way the Olympics does - whomever gets the most 1st places, with ties settled by most 2nd place, 3rd place, commendations and so on.

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Removing scoring means -

* judges spend no time at all worrying about a mark, just feedback
* it completely removes the effect of "generous" vs "stingy" judges
* it also removes the effect of those judges used to a 10pt system who can't understand our 12pt system
* it can encourage better critique
* it's more encouraging to beginners not feeling they are bottom of the pack because of an arbitrary score
* doesn't impact the tradition of giving out awards
* has been proven to work at other clubs

Love to hear what people think!

[Iggy]

Interesting suggestions that have their merits.
How would this fit in with SLF Competitions?
The Bamber competition is an open competition that includes all 3 classes and judged to "one" standard.
In most other club competitions, Standard Class would hopefully be judged more sympathetically, while the Advanced Class might be judged more rigorously which is not always the case!
In our current system, could we ask judges:

to focus on what works well in an image and potential areas for improvement. They are advised to consider the overall emotional impact & story of the image as well as technical merits - it's not a case of "spot the flaw" but rather why the image works and what the photographer could do to make it work better.

Many judges might not like to be "told" how to judge, but I could try starting with the Print Competition on the coming Wednesday!
Next year, perhaps we should not start with an open competition where new members might be open to harsh critism for the outset.
Iggy

[davidc]

Some good points, my thoughts/replies are below.

How would this fit in with SLF Competitions?

My understanding is the committee chose the best images from our competitions to represent the club in the SLF, SPA and PAGB events. They can still do that, they don't need a judges' score to make that decision for them

The Bamber competition is an open competition that includes all 3 classes and judged to "one" standard.
In most other club competitions, Standard Class would hopefully be judged more sympathetically, while the Advanced Class might be judged more rigorously which is not always the case!

You can still have classes, that doesn't change. The judging still has the same principle of choosing his favourite out of the set of images presented, so there will be 1st - 3rd plus commendations for each of the three divisions we have now. Images are ranked relative to each other within the division against equivalent "standard".

Competitions like the Bamber trophy might need tweaking, either so the overall favourite image wins or the judge sees each person's overall entry as a whole like the way the Masters trophy is going to run. But the Bamber is a good example. While I'm not arguing that the winner's work was probably the best on the night, the judge was hugely erratic in his marking. You could hear the gasps and the shared looks of amazement at the way he was doing it. Although I felt his judging approach as a whole was poor, had he not been obliged to provide scores for everything he could have just focused on picking a handful of winning images. The net effect on the competition would have been the same. As it was, he spent so much time repeating himself about faults, rather than what worked well, the evening finished late

Many judges might not like to be "told" how to judge, but I could try starting with the Print Competition on the coming Wednesday!

I've spoken to a few and they all said they disliked points/scoring and preferred simply picking a subset of the strongest work. Getting judges to apply more consideration to images that whether there are bright spots or distractions is a harder task though and one we need to work on over time Judges consistently feel obliged to find reasons to knock marks off their judging is often negative. If we say "ignore marking, tell us what you like about an image and how you might tweak it" the feedback is likely to be more useful. You'll still get a load of old-guard types who quote the PAGB handbook like it's gospel but we can always control the judges we invite back Besides, changing the mindset the national bodies impart on the judges is something I'm planning to work on behind the scenes

I would say don't speak to anyone yet, it's not the intent that we change things with one post! Just wanted to see if it was something the members were interested in. Probably better to schedule any changes to the start of a new season, just like was done with this one.

Next year, perhaps we should not start with an open competition where new members might be open to harsh critism for the outset.

I'm not sure the timing of the event is the reason for the harshness of the criticism. I think it's because judges just look for faults instead of being asked to be positive. In any mixed class event, on balance the odds would tend to favour the stronger photographer over the less-strong, but I've been to plenty of events where a newbie produced the best work on the night.

[Rose]

Mid Somerset Camera Club does not use a scoring system. There are also no classes. Judges critique every image then pick (and rank) the top 5 images. Each comp is themed apart from the first round which is open and I understand prints and digital are both included. I've yet to actually experience it but the first comp is coming up in 2 weeks so I will feed back some impressions afterwards.

[davidc]

I think your feedback will be very interesting.

[Mike Farley]

I know of other clubs which do not score images, neither do they have trophies since there is no tally of marks. In one instance, images are critiqued and the judge selects the top three and three highly commendeds for the evening. My suggestions that Croydon should consider doing something similar have never been well received. In this club, people generally seem to like competitions which are competitive (if that is not a tautology).

We demand a lot of our judges. We expect them to be authoritative, encouraging, entertaining and, most importantly, unbiased by their own personal preferences and the many similar images they have seen previously. Moreover, they do it for love and receive no payment for their services other than reasonable travel expenses. Unsurprisingly, some are better than others and where any opinion will always be subjective, judges will rarely please everyone. Where I think that they are most challenged is in critiquing an indifferent image in a way which is honest, yet does not discourage the author. Especially if that person is just at the start of their photographic journey. The judges I have least time for are those who use technical flaws, real or sometimes imagined, to mark down an image they do not like. To my mind that is dishonest if it is a ploy to avoid the more difficult option of discussing aesthetic merit.

Marks are a two way street. I have never agreed that pictures should be assessed on the basis of points awarded; it seems an irrational and arbitrary way to differentiate images which in open competition could represent contrasting styles and genres. For a long time I submitted my shots for comment only and often the judge would assume that they were submitted by a novice and would go out of their way to be positive. Frequently it left me wondering what they really thought; at least a mark forces the judge to come down on one side of the fence or another. When I did eventually compete, on more than one occasion I have found no correlation between a judge's seemingly positive view and the low mark given. When I have observed judges critiquing work separately before going back a second time to award the marks, there is astonishing variation between the tenor of the comments and the eventual score.

My own experience is that on many occasions while I have been frustrated by what seems to be unfair or irrelevant criticism, over time I have received worthwhile feedback. it has been a learning process which has played a part helping me improve my photography. There have been highs and lows along the way, but what judging does do is provide an insight into how others view our work. And, ultimately, that is invaluable.

You might be interested in reading an overview of the judges' course run by the South West Photographic Federation as I think it sets out some important guidance for judges.

http://www.wcpf.org.uk/pages/judges-and-judging.php

[Mike Farley]

Mid Somerset Camera Club does not use a scoring system. There are also no classes. Judges critique every image then pick (and rank) the top 5 images. Each comp is themed apart from the first round which is open and I understand prints and digital are both included. I've yet to actually experience it but the first comp is coming up in 2 weeks so I will feed back some impressions afterwards.

Like David, I will be interested to hear of your experiences. I must admit that I have my doubts about the lack of any segregation, which amounts to sink or swim for the less experienced. Neither am I particularly keen on themes, although that comes down to personal style and preference.

[Mike Farley]

My understanding is the committee chose the best images from our competitions to represent the club in the SLF, SPA and PAGB events. They can still do that, they don't need a judges' score to make that decision for them

Hmm, people do seem to like to know how an image has fared in competition, even if it was just the once, and can be reluctant to use their own judgement when work has not been assessed by another.

[davidc]

My understanding is the committee chose the best images from our competitions to represent the club in the SLF, SPA and PAGB events. They can still do that, they don't need a judges' score to make that decision for them

Hmm, people do seem to like to know how an image has fared in competition, even if it was just the once, and can be reluctant to use their own judgement when work has not been assessed by another.

We can still use images assessed by judges, we just don't need to know if an image was given 10.5 or 11 to decide if it's worthwhile
The council can take all the placed & commended images plus ones they like to make a decision from.

[davidc]

I know of other clubs which do not score images, neither do they have trophies since there is no tally of marks. In one instance, images are critiqued and the judge selects the top three and three highly commendeds for the evening. My suggestions that Croydon should consider doing something similar have never been well received. In this club, people generally seem to like competitions which are competitive (if that is not a tautology).

Marks are a two way street. I have never agreed that pictures should be assessed on the basis of points awarded; it seems an irrational and arbitrary way to differentiate images which in open competition could represent contrasting styles and genres. For a long time I submitted my shots for comment only and often the judge would assume that they were submitted by a novice and would go out of their way to be positive. Frequently it left me wondering what they really thought; at least a mark forces the judge to come down on one side of the fence or another. When I did eventually compete, on more than one occasion I have found no correlation between a judge's seemingly positive view and the low mark given. When I have observed judges critiquing work separately before going back a second time to award the marks, there is astonishing variation between the tenor of the comments and the eventual score.

I'm not 100% sure if you are for or against now

I don't think a lack of a mark precludes a judge saying what they really think. I also don't know why you think removing scores would make things less competitive?