Birds On Sticks

General discussion and anything that isn't covered by the other categories.
Mike Farley
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Mike Farley » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 08:46

An interesting talk by Ann Healey last night. I note that she opted to go with nature shots for her DPAGB partly because that is her specialism and partly because the genre tends to score better.

Regarding her two failed ARPS attempts, Ann was doing something very difficult. Filling the frame with such small insects, even with a macro lens, is nigh on impossible and cropping is inevitable. She was kind enough to pass out the prints from her first submission and when examined closely the detail was just not there. That was compounded by the images being printed so large at A3. During the break, Ann confirmed that she had cropped and I believe that lay behind the feedback she received about over sharpening. Her successful panel mainly featured much larger subjects and together with an upgrade to a Canon 5D Mk II which had more resolution, excessive cropping was not an issue.

That raises the question as to why some of the shots from her unsuccessful ARPS panels featured in her DPAGB submission. It comes down to the different ways the PAGB assesses images. The assessors view at a distance for a few seconds and rarely examine prints closely, which makes sharpening less of an issue. In addition, the prints were smaller. While Ann eschewed DPI submissions, I wonder if she would have been successful with either of her first two ARPS panels on account of the lower resolution requirements for projected images. The comments suggested that the panels failed for technical reasons rather than aesthetic concerns.
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Mike Farley
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Rose
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Rose » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 17:37

It has been suggested that you are better off printing at A4 as there is less opportunity for such close inspection by judges...
Rose
Iggy
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Iggy » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 17:56

Mike said:
One of Arden's images is featured on the second page of the bulletin and what really struck me about it is how large the woman's hands and forearms are compared to everything else. It looks unnatural and I am not sure that the effect is due to the use of a wide-angle lens.


Would the larger than life left hand have been overcome by using a longer lens and shooting from a greater distance away?
Mike Farley
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Mike Farley » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 17:57

Rose wrote:It has been suggested that you are better off printing at A4 as there is less opportunity for such close inspection by judges...

Ann says that she did print her second ARPS panel at A4, which was also unsuccessful. Apparently, the explanatory letter giving the reasons for the rejection suggested that she should have printed at A4! Clearly, someone was not paying attention.
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Mike Farley
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Mike Farley
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Mike Farley » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 18:09

Iggy wrote:Would the larger than life left hand have been overcome by using a longer lens and shooting from a greater distance away?

In theory, yes. It is difficult to say without knowing the circumstances in which the shot was taken and the reasons for the enlarged limbs. Maybe a wide-angle lens was necessary due to lack of space and the photographer liked the effect. Or it might have been deliberately introduced during post capture processing. However it was achieved, it appears to have been intentional, with the author and judges all liking it.
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Mike Farley
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Iggy
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Iggy » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 18:31

Mike said:
An interesting talk by Ann Healey last night.


Following on, how much interest is there among CCC members in working towards a PAGB award?
With nature in mind, there might be several CCC members that could possibly be successful with CPAGB (10 images) or even the DPAGB (15 images).

The next suitable PAGB Awards assessment is being hosted by the Chilterns Association of Camera Clubs, CACC, on Saturday 23rd and Sunday 24th November 2019. The assessment is expected to be held in Watford which is not too far from Croydon.

http://www.thecacc.org.uk/wp/events/pagb-awards-assessment/
http://www.thepagb.org.uk/awards/apm-awards/

Subscribe to the FREE PAGB e-news
http://www.pagbnews.co.uk/sign-e-news-you-do-not-need-complete-form-if-you-are-already-subscribed
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Paul Heester
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Paul Heester » Fri 07 Dec 2018, 14:31

Iggy wrote:
Following on, how much interest is there among CCC members in working towards a PAGB award?
With nature in mind, there might be several CCC members that could possibly be successful with CPAGB (10 images) or even the DPAGB (15 images).

The next suitable PAGB Awards assessment is being hosted by the Chilterns Association of Camera Clubs, CACC, on Saturday 23rd and Sunday 24th November 2019. The assessment is expected to be held in Watford which is not too far from Croydon.


Having submitted DPI images in 2017 for the CPAGB hosted in West Croydon and failed the pass rate I would suggest any entrants submit prints. Having not been to anything like it beforehand I was surprised there were double the number of prints over DPIs. But when it came to scoring it seemed obvious (to me at least) that prints clearly scored better than DPIs. Whilst not an excuse for my own failure it did put me off from any future submissions to the PAGB. I jotted down a few notes from the day which read "more nature and more sports" based on the good scores I did see. However, trends may have changed since then.
Rose
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Rose » Fri 07 Dec 2018, 22:41

DPIs have the disadvantage of being projected on a large screen so any imperfections can be seen easier than prints. However, prints will definitely lose marks if they're not on 'the right paper'.
Rose
Mike Farley
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Mike Farley » Sat 08 Dec 2018, 09:00

The PAGB sets very high standards, even at the CPAGB level. According to the description, it is supposed to represent "good club photography" although I would suggest that only the high end of that categorisation will pass muster. I could not make either of the workshops SPA organised when they held the APM day last year, nor the APM itself, so cannot comment on those. At the time, I was considering going for a DPAGB where the criterion is "Open Exhibition Photography". I regularly receive multiple acceptances in the SPA Biennial exhibition, so that aspiration did not seem unreasonable. One of those who did attend a workshop warned me that my expectations were unrealistic and the best I could hope for was a CPAGB.

The PAGB usually hold 1-2-1 review sessions at The Photography Show which are conducted by Rod Wheelans, so I went to one of those instead. I took along an assortment of shots in different genres to see how they would fare. They included one of my most successful images which has been exhibited and even won me a camera in a round of Amateur Photographer's APOY competition. It has also been published in What Digital Camera as example intended to inspire others. That photo did not go down at all well. I found some of the other comments on shots which have been successful elsewhere equally surprising. Overall, Rod advised that I would probably find the DPAGB a challenge. His words were along the lines of "you could go for a C and get a badge or fail at a D and learn something".

Another thing which I have heard is that the PAGB consider the standard of photography to be higher in the north of the country than in the south. i asked Rod about that as well and he confirmed that view. I would state it somewhat differently. As Paul has noted, certain types of image tend to fare better than others when it comes to the PAGB. In her presentation, Ann cautioned against using landscapes, for example. I have already commented about the limited variation in Arden's runner's up portfolio at the recent national inter-club championship and I doubt that was accidental. Arden was being competitive and kudos to them for playing the game well.

In one way, the PAGB assertion is correct. But only when viewed through the prism of the PAGB. Personally, I prefer more realistic depictions rather than the Photoshopped creations for which the PAGB seems to opt. I think that is why nature and sport generally do better, as they are more documentary in style and less suitable for Photoshop "enhancement". I suspect that is what is happening with the north-south divide. It is a difference in approach and those in the north are holding sway. As evidence, the link below is to Godalming's winning panel from the recent SPA inter-club championship. While the use of Photoshop clearly plays a significant role, there is a greater range in the images than Arden's. However, I doubt whether Godalming's panel would be preferred when it comes to the PAGB championships. They finished 14th in this year's competition and likely will do similarly next year.

https://surreypa.org.uk/2018-godalming- ... -images-2/
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Mike Farley
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Iggy
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Re: Birds On Sticks

Postby Iggy » Sat 08 Dec 2018, 12:09

Paul said: submitted DPI images in 2017 for the CPAGB hosted in West Croydon


Thanks Paul for sharing your experience of the CPAGB entry, which is helpful.

Looking at Ann's images and her experiences & advice from several submissions to various bodies, Nature is probably the way to go at the PAGB, particularly at our club where there are some great nature photographers.
Nothing to stop one interspersing these with other types of striking images as the PAGB entry is not a panel competition.
10 Print images with immediate impact are required.

I think for our club, more members are likely to have success at PAGB rather than the RPS.
And the PAGB award is for life without the need for yearly subscription payments.

The PAGB does loan out "PAGB Awards for Photographic Merit (2016)" with a large selection of images on CD which have scored in the passing range at Credit, Distinction and Master level, that we can obtain on loan to give us further views of what is required.
Let me know if this is off interest. http://www.thepagb.org.uk/services/recorded-lectures/lectures-catalogue/#squelch-taas-accordion-shortcode-content-3

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